Okay I finally had time to listen to part 2 of your discussion of The Wicker Man.
I re-watched the Maypole scene on youtube, and I am not sure that the dance strictly involves “pelvic thrusts”. The boys really look more like they are thrusting their knees back and forth. On the other hand, I remember once, in England, going to a Christmas panto (sorry, I am not going to explain what this is for non-UK readers) which starred Sylvester McCoy. Anyway at one point McCoy invited children from the audience onto the stage and taught them how to do “The Time Warp” from Rocky Horror, including the “pelvic thrusts”! I think for young children before puberty a dance move such as a pelvic thrust isn’t going to have any sexual meaning.
Mike felt that the reincarnation theme came from “Eastern” religions, but belief in the “transmigration of the soul” was known in some places in pre-Christian Europe. Some Greeks believed in it, including the well-known philosopher Pythagoras, and also the Celts believed in it (at least that is what Roman writers report). Some have theorized that a belief in reincarnation was widespread among cultures that spoke Indo-European languages, this would include Greek, the Celtic languages, and also Sanskrit, the language in which the Hindu sacred scriptures were written—as well as tons of other languages such as English.
I feel like you and Mike, in this podcast and the last one, are trying to draw a clear line between “pagan” and “Judeo-Christian”. I don’t believe that such a line can be drawn. When Christianity came to Britain the British already had agriculture for thousands of years. Their whole lifestyle was focused around customs to ensure good harvests. Some of these customs we now know had good scientific basis, while others were superstitions, but of course in those days the people wouldn’t have known which was which. When Christianity arrived, the missionaries of course couldn’t tell the people to stop doing what they needed to do to keep their farms going, so almost all of these customs survived. (Also, some of Britain’s agricultural customs very likely developed after Christianity arrived!) The Christian church in Britain had to become a part of the landscape. You can still find if you visit old villages in Britain, that the churchyard will have a sacred well or a sacred oak tree that has been there longer than the church itself.
Well before Christianity came to Britain it had begun picking up elements of other religions. The Christians had drifted away from the Jewish belief that “God is one” and were instead teaching that “God is three”, that God consisted of three distinct deities called “The Father”, “The Son” and “The Holy Spirit”. They had also raised Jesus’ mother to the level of a deity they called by many titles such as “Mother of God”. Then there was a huge host of lesser deities—angels and saints. Additionally, Christians had started celebrating the birth of Jesus in a holiday a few days after the Winter Solstice that was called Christmas. None of this stuff is in the Christian Bible, but these elements that seem to have come from non-Christian religions ended up becoming very central and important parts of medieval Christianity.
Even if you study the early history of Judaism you find that in its earliest days Judaism wasn’t very different from the other religions practiced in that part of the world at the time.
It wasn’t until much later, during the Protestant Reformation, that some folks started trying to draw a line between what was “Christian” and what was “Pagan”. This was the concern of the more extreme Protestant groups, in Britain the most prominent of these was the Puritans. The Puritans tried to eliminate anything they considered “Pagan”, even going and whitewashing the artwork in the old Christian Churches. But before the Puritans, nobody in Britain seemed to worry much about what was “Christian” and what was “Pagan”.
And a quick note: You talked about people turning into hares, it was a common belief in Britain that witches could turn into hares.
(Here’s a thought: it seems to me that if they redubbed Britt Eckland’s speaking roles with a different actress, her singing voice with another actress, and replaced her body in many shots with a still third actress, can we honestly say that Britt Eckland was really in this movie!)
Okay I finally had time to listen to part 2 of your discussion of The Wicker Man.
ReplyDeleteI re-watched the Maypole scene on youtube, and I am not sure that the dance strictly involves “pelvic thrusts”. The boys really look more like they are thrusting their knees back and forth. On the other hand, I remember once, in England, going to a Christmas panto (sorry, I am not going to explain what this is for non-UK readers) which starred Sylvester McCoy. Anyway at one point McCoy invited children from the audience onto the stage and taught them how to do “The Time Warp” from Rocky Horror, including the “pelvic thrusts”! I think for young children before puberty a dance move such as a pelvic thrust isn’t going to have any sexual meaning.
Mike felt that the reincarnation theme came from “Eastern” religions, but belief in the “transmigration of the soul” was known in some places in pre-Christian Europe. Some Greeks believed in it, including the well-known philosopher Pythagoras, and also the Celts believed in it (at least that is what Roman writers report). Some have theorized that a belief in reincarnation was widespread among cultures that spoke Indo-European languages, this would include Greek, the Celtic languages, and also Sanskrit, the language in which the Hindu sacred scriptures were written—as well as tons of other languages such as English.
(more to come . . .)
I feel like you and Mike, in this podcast and the last one, are trying to draw a clear line between “pagan” and “Judeo-Christian”. I don’t believe that such a line can be drawn. When Christianity came to Britain the British already had agriculture for thousands of years. Their whole lifestyle was focused around customs to ensure good harvests. Some of these customs we now know had good scientific basis, while others were superstitions, but of course in those days the people wouldn’t have known which was which. When Christianity arrived, the missionaries of course couldn’t tell the people to stop doing what they needed to do to keep their farms going, so almost all of these customs survived. (Also, some of Britain’s agricultural customs very likely developed after Christianity arrived!) The Christian church in Britain had to become a part of the landscape. You can still find if you visit old villages in Britain, that the churchyard will have a sacred well or a sacred oak tree that has been there longer than the church itself.
ReplyDeleteWell before Christianity came to Britain it had begun picking up elements of other religions. The Christians had drifted away from the Jewish belief that “God is one” and were instead teaching that “God is three”, that God consisted of three distinct deities called “The Father”, “The Son” and “The Holy Spirit”. They had also raised Jesus’ mother to the level of a deity they called by many titles such as “Mother of God”. Then there was a huge host of lesser deities—angels and saints. Additionally, Christians had started celebrating the birth of Jesus in a holiday a few days after the Winter Solstice that was called Christmas. None of this stuff is in the Christian Bible, but these elements that seem to have come from non-Christian religions ended up becoming very central and important parts of medieval Christianity.
Even if you study the early history of Judaism you find that in its earliest days Judaism wasn’t very different from the other religions practiced in that part of the world at the time.
It wasn’t until much later, during the Protestant Reformation, that some folks started trying to draw a line between what was “Christian” and what was “Pagan”. This was the concern of the more extreme Protestant groups, in Britain the most prominent of these was the Puritans. The Puritans tried to eliminate anything they considered “Pagan”, even going and whitewashing the artwork in the old Christian Churches. But before the Puritans, nobody in Britain seemed to worry much about what was “Christian” and what was “Pagan”.
And a quick note: You talked about people turning into hares, it was a common belief in Britain that witches could turn into hares.
(Here’s a thought: it seems to me that if they redubbed Britt Eckland’s speaking roles with a different actress, her singing voice with another actress, and replaced her body in many shots with a still third actress, can we honestly say that Britt Eckland was really in this movie!)